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Author Topic: 2009 Engine with Lambda Option  (Read 24508 times, 68 Replies)
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caddycruiser
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« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2008, 11:28:14 AM »

With the Traverse info showing up at Dealerworld, would this indicate production will start on these ahead of the '09 Acadia?  Are they built in the same plant?

Not necessarily, but maybe.  The Traverse, which is supposed to be the highest volume of the 4, has its own factory in Spring Hill, Tennessee--the old Saturn plant.  This was basically chosen just because the current Lambda factory couldn't handle the additional high Chevy volume.

As for the information showing up, sometimes this just happens with no relation to real intro time.  For instance, "2009" is now on all of the GM accessories website pages for each current model, but none are still starting until their usual summer date.

It will be shown soon, and then should start production at the same time as the other 2009's or maybe a bit earlier.
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« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2008, 06:05:46 PM »

"Chevrolet will unveil the Traverse on Wednesday at the Chicago Auto Show.."

looking forward to this one!!!
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« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2008, 12:15:47 PM »

Here is a GMC concept vehicle - 326 HP Direct Injected V8

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200802030825/FREE/619174692

Maybe this engine can make it into future Acadia's (Denali version).
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« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2008, 12:19:40 PM »

Here is a GMC concept vehicle - 326 HP Direct Injected V8

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200802030825/FREE/619174692

Maybe this engine can make it into future Acadia's (Denali version).



Potentially so, in time.  It was said, not long ago, that the new Ultra OHC V8 was shelved, but "stay tuned" for other choices, i.e. further small block exploration, such as this 4.9L which is smaller for lighter uses.

Not immediately for 2009, but the Direct Injection V6 will be there across the board, and then a V8--maybe directly from that concept or similar--can be introduced, or not, as an upper choice.  No recent word on any of this, but we'll see.
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« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2008, 11:27:53 AM »

Now that there's a lot of press on the Traverse, here's a quote from one of many auto-web sites:

"The Traverse will feature a new direct-injection version of GM's 3.6-liter V6 engine that improves power and fuel economy compared with its three cousins that are already on sale. The engine produces 280 horsepower and will be added to the other models for the 2009 model year. GM will reveal the Traverse's fuel economy later this year."

I'm a little surprised that they (author) are indicating a marginal extra 5 hp vs. the std. V-6.  I'm hoping they're wrong since it [the engine, DI] makes 304 hp in the CTS.
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« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2008, 12:46:25 PM »

Smooth,
The articles I've read today with the press releases have the following text to them indicating 286 or 281 HP depending upon trim level (similar to the Outlook).

Quote
The 3.6L engine's direct-injection technology helps produce power similar to many V-8 engines and uses regular unleaded gasoline. The Traverse is rated at an estimated 286 horsepower (213 kW)* and 255 lb.-ft. of torque (345 Nm)* with dual exhaust (281 hp/210 kW* and 253 lb.-ft./343 Nm* with single exhaust) - but delivers better-than-expected fuel economy. Ninety percent of the engine's peak torque is available from approximately 2,500 rpm to more than 6,000 rpm.

Still not quite the bump I think most of us were expecting.  I was expecting right around 300HP as well with a significant bump in torque.  However, I think our current engines are rated at 251 lb/ft of torque, so not really much difference there.  Maybe the MPG numbers will be rated better though...
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« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2008, 01:09:32 PM »

Particularly with an increase of only 4 lbs ft of torque, it is not likely to feel much different at all in everyday driving. Although we all talk about horsepower, it is really the size and shape of the torque curve that we drive around on the majority of the time and which gives an engine its feel.  The extra 11 hp are not likely to be found anywhere other than the very upper rpms.
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« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2008, 01:28:33 PM »

You are exactly correct Gerry, so unless they made some improvements to the tranny programming (please?), I'm thinking the 09s will have the same behavior quite a few of us have complained about on the 07s and 08s.  I hoping they made some tranny programming refinements in the 09s that will trickle down to us.
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« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2008, 01:54:33 PM »

People are REALLY missing the point with the engine...it's NOT all paper numbers.  Just because the CTS DI engine is rated at 300+hp, doesn't mean that's automatically something that would translate to these, much different and heavier vehicles meant for hauling, towing, etc.

The reality is a more powerful and torquey engine, that even if moderately more so, has a more useful powerband in which to apply it.  That makes a very big difference in a big, heavy vehicle.  Rather than high winding, "need to rev it hard" to get the max power...there's more down low.

And further, the main idea was not for super horespower or torque number increases (the current Lambda 3.6L already does well on paper there), but also to lower the emissions made and improve fuel economy even further.
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« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2008, 03:50:15 PM »

I don't think I'm missing the point here.  I understand that the CTS is tuned to be a "sporty" vehicle where "sporty" can't really describe any 2.5 ton lump of metal. 

I agree with you that fuel and emissions efficiencies are the point of this new engine.  However, since they haven't published those figures yet, we'll have to save those discussions for later.   For now, the only numbers we have to chat about are the power figures.  Cheers

You are correct about the current 3.6 engine hitting its max torque at 3200 rpm.  However, I'm not sure they've published where peak torque is obtained on this tune of the DI engine yet.  The press releases I've seen say that 90% of the peak torque is attained from 2500 to 6000rpm, but I'm not sure that equates to 2500 being where the peak torque is at.  I would read that to mean that at 2500 rpm, it is delivering 90% of the peak and that it is somewhere higher than that where the peak is actually attained.  Looking at the CTS specs on Edmunds (http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/cadillac/cts/100905508/specs.html), it shows peak torque for the DI engine at 5200rpm.

I've not seen a similar statement on the current engine, so I can't compare how that might be similar or different than the current engine.

Edit:  Also, the standard CTS engine (not DI) peaks at 3100 rpm.  So at least looking at the comparison of the standard vs. DI engines in the Caddy (which of course are tuned differently than the Acadia), the DI engine has a significantly higher rpm range where its peak is hit.

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« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2008, 03:52:52 PM »

I've not missed that point, in fact you'll note above that I did say that the shape of the torque curve determines how the engine feels.  I had just not seen anything to indicate the torque peak had been moved down range as much as you indicate.  Maybe you have more info than the press release.

I'm a bit confused as your note says the torque peak is at 2500 RPM yet doesn't the press release say "Ninety percent of the engine's peak torque is available from approximately 2,500 rpm to more than 6,000 rpm"?  To me, if the 90% points are at 2.5k and 6k, the peak has to be somewhere above 2500 rpm.  How do we know that really is significantly different than the 3200 of the existing engine.  FWIW I understand that the torque peak on the CTS DI engine is at 4k.   I'm not trying to argue, just to make sense out of the info that we have.  To me, the press release info on the torque curve says that the torque peak is somewhere above 2500, not at 2500.  I'm not saying the shape of the torque curve isn't improved, but do you have a curve that actually shows the area under the curve in the lower RPM areas (which is what really matters) to be significantly different than the current?

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« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2008, 04:19:45 PM »

Looks like Klooge and I overlapped.

But Caddycruiser, here's a quote about the current Acadia engine from a 2007 Acadia review when it was released.

 "The real deal here though is the flat torque curve: 90 per cent of that peak torque value is on tap from 1600 to 5800 r.p.m. "

So how would we know that the shape of the new torque curve is significantly different if the current engines makes 90% of its torque at 1600RPM?   I remain confused.... Smiley
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« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2008, 04:23:04 PM »

Great minds think alike I guess.  Smiley

Based on that quote and comparing it to today's quote, it almost seems like the torque curve of the DI has moved later in the RPM range rather than earlier.
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« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2008, 04:28:12 PM »

I know the DI curve is for the Cadillac CTS, but here's the torque curve comparisons between the the port injected LY7 in the Acadia and the direct injected LLT in the CTS.  The notable difference I see is that the LY7 torque peaks at 3200 rpm while the LLT peaks at 5200 rpm.  Both torque curves are fairly flat, which is what you want to see, however, the DI engine does appear to have a noticeable advantage at 2000 rpm which would help hauling around these heavy rigs.  But then again, from the press releases, the peak torque numbers for the Lambda LLT are considerably less than the CTS LLT.  So what's my point?   :Smiley    I guess we can't tell anything for sure until GM Powertrain posts the specifics of the Lambda tuned LLT motors.
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« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2008, 04:47:13 PM »

Good points GeoHawk.  Especially the last one.  However, I find it fun speculating about things I really know nothing about.  Smiley

If MPG numbers are up and there is even a slight bump in power, then hot darn, everybody's a winner.   Beer
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« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2008, 04:51:32 PM »

If MPG numbers are up and there is even a slight bump in power, then hot darn, everybody's a winner.   Beer
Yeah, except for those of us '07 and '08 owners that want to go trade our lightly used Lambdas in for an '09 now.  Comfort 

 Grin
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« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2008, 05:52:17 PM »

I edited my post.  I realize, in a hurry, I jumped on some numbers (using what someone else quoted) that are not 100% correct, as far as the peak torque, etc.

The point still stands, however, that although there isn't a significant jump in horsepower or torque, there is enough so and the DI engine naturally has more grunt, that it should be noticeably more appropriate in these big and heavy vehicles.

We're all working on theory, but if the difference in regular 3.6L vs. DI 3.6L in a vehicle like the CTS right now is any regard, the seat of the pants feel should be positively improved over current--which, itself, is NO slouch.  More a product of an engine that loves to rev and a 6-speed that is trying to use that but also be as economical as possible.  As many have seen, that fight to get that balance right is a big one...but maybe that will change again too.

It all comes down to a "we'll see" again.  I knew that the "numbers" weren't going to go up much, but usually when that happens, that also means a lot of tuning went into just making sure the powerband is more appropriate.  Who knows.  Should be better, either way.
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« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2008, 08:49:48 PM »

Yeah, except for those of us '07 and '08 owners that want to go trade our lightly used Lambdas in for an '09 now.  Comfort 

 Grin

Yeah, I hear ya.  I'm in the same boat.   Cry
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« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2008, 09:06:25 PM »

Decisions, decisions...my Pathfinder lease is up at the end of May.  I could probably extend it a month or two and wait for the '09.  On the other hand I'll probably get a better deal on an '08.  confused
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« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2008, 05:56:43 PM »

This is what the GM press release has said for the specs of the Traverse engine.

Quote
Horsepower (hp):
281 @ 6400 (single exhaust)*
286 @ 6400 (dual exhaust)*

Torque (lb-ft):
253 @ 5500 (single exhaust)*
255 @ 5500 (dual exhaust)*

* Preliminary, pending SAE certification.

Source:  http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/08chicago/brands/chevrolet080206/index.html

So it looks like it does make peak torque at a much higher rpm than the current 07/08 Lambda engine.  Of course, it still doesn't show what the torque curve looks like between 1000-3000 rpm where the current tranny programming really likes to keep it.  But as we've mentioned, I think fuel efficiency is the real goal of implementing this engine into the Lambda platform.  It'll be interesting to see how much the EPA estimates go up...

p.s. Thanks to admin for posting the Traverse specs on TraverseForum
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