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Author Topic: 2009 Engine with Lambda Option  (Read 25036 times, 68 Replies)
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« on: January 22, 2008, 12:43:38 PM »

I've been obsessed with looking for what engine will be offered in a Acadia Denali (if in fact they build the darn thing) and I came across this nugget of information form www.GMInsideNews.com



Quote:
Originally Posted by minnfang 
If they go DI on the Traverse, wouldn't they have to go DI with the entire Lambda lineup for 2009? If not, they'd have the cheapest Lambda with the best engine - that would be kind of backwards.

All of the 2009 Lambda vehicles will have DI on the 3.6L.
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 02:29:30 PM »

Do you think problem in engine? So if Acadia get 10-15 hourses more, the problem will gone. I'm still thinking engine not a problem, neither transmission, the problem is/are in software or/and processor. I know for sure the cheaper updated software, but it's very expensive built new logical board. So, gm is trying go cheaper way. 
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2008, 01:34:07 AM »

Quote:
Originally Posted by minnfang 
If they go DI on the Traverse, wouldn't they have to go DI with the entire Lambda lineup for 2009? If not, they'd have the cheapest Lambda with the best engine - that would be kind of backwards.

All of the 2009 Lambda vehicles will have DI on the 3.6L.
[/quote]

Well, I must not have seen what you read, but I did see the 3.6L SIDI V6(LLT) vs. the 3.6 LY7 (current Acadia) in the top 10 engine review that you referenced.  Here's the spec:

Displacement: 3564cc
Assembly Site: Flint, Michigan
Configuration: Dual Overhead Camshaft (4 valves per cylinder)
Horsepower/Application:
304 HP @ 6700 rpm (Cadillac CTS)
302 HP @ 6700 rpm (Cadillac STS)
Torque:
273 lb.-ft. @ 4000 rpm (Cadillac CTS)
272 lb.-ft. @ 4000 rpm (Cadillac STS)
 
Features: Variable Valve Timing, Direct-Injection

Have you read what the equivalent MGP will be on an Acadia?  I'd love the extra pwr, but at what price?  Is this perhaps equally efficient as the existing engines?

Smooth <><
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2008, 07:31:37 AM »

From what I surmise is the mpg should be close to the same to maybe 3-5% better (that is really neglible in my opinion).  I primarily want the added torque to get the Acadia moving.

I know from watching the 4.2L I6 develop over the years that they usually find ways to squeeze some more power out of the engines when needed.  I think a combination of current owner feedback and GM like having the "class leading" language in there advertising should make my wishes come true.

Hopefully we will all find out towards the end of March when 2009 model year literature starts surfacing.
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2008, 09:18:15 AM »

The extra little bit of grunt will help, but it won't be a shocking difference, as the current powerplant already makes great and very similar levels of power.  Transmission tuning should again be slightly different, but we'll have to see how well they actually do that.  Out of both GM and Ford using the 6-speed, GM still can't seem to come close to tuning it as well as Ford, and continually claims what they do is for economy, but that argument isn't working anymore.

We'll see.

Along with the DI 3.6L engine will be "new" center stacks inside incorporating the new integrated radio & climate, which essentially means components that are all one piece, sort of, and not with obviously separate black radio and climate units.
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2008, 09:32:21 AM »


Along with the DI 3.6L engine will be "new" center stacks inside incorporating the new integrated radio & climate, which essentially means components that are all one piece, sort of, and not with obviously separate black radio and climate units.

If I understand this properly some would take this as a step backwards.  If it is like my Outback all this means is that it will be more difficult for those who want to swap out stereos.  Mind you, I am not a big customization guy, so it does not matter much to me but others have complained about the stereos in the Outback and there is not much they can do about it now because it is "integrated" in some way with the HVAC controls.
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2008, 04:19:22 PM »

The extra little bit of grunt will help, but it won't be a shocking difference, as the current powerplant already makes great and very similar levels of power.  Transmission tuning should again be slightly different, but we'll have to see how well they actually do that.  Out of both GM and Ford using the 6-speed, GM still can't seem to come close to tuning it as well as Ford, and continually claims what they do is for economy, but that argument isn't working anymore.


Well, let's just hope it makes the Acadia even better than it already is!  Here's a short blurb from a google search on the new engine:

"For 2008, STS will be the first GM vehicle equipped with a new 3.6-liter direct-injected V-6 engine. The new base powerplant, with 298 horsepower (222 kW), delivers 40 more horsepower; and torque is increased to 268 lb.-ft. (371 Nm) up from 252 lb.-ft. (348 Nm) on the current base engine.

The new direct-injected 3.6L will be mated to the Hydra-Matic 6L50 six-speed automatic transmission, the first pairing of this transmission with a V-6 engine. Additionally, the STS V-6 will continue to be available with all-wheel drive (AWD) for 2008.

Advantages of the new direct-injected engine include a 25-percent reduction in cold-start hydrocarbon emissions. Additionally, despite the 15-percent increase in power, fuel economy is expected to increase slightly."

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/05/09/gm-expands-direct-injection-to-3-6l-v-6/
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2008, 10:48:11 PM »

Here's a complete list of all the quotes on that GMI thread, about the Lambda changes.

First the info posted on the Canadian auto show sight:

Quote
2009 Chevrolet Traverse
Based on GMs popular midsize crossover architecture, the Traverse delivers a robust and satisfying combination of power, efficiency, ride and safety. The driving experience is supported by a sophisticated, 3.6L DOHC V6 that features variable valve timing and gasoline direct-injection technology. It is designed to provide excellent power and efficiency that translates to usable, power-on-demand performance and is expected to deliver the best highway fuel economy in the segment.

http://www.autoshow.ca/2008/
http://www.autoshow.ca/2008/downloads/SHOWBIZ-JAN08.pdf


Seemed like a possible flub, until then a senior member of GMI said this, after one person brought up that it would be awkward for the new cheapest Lambda to have this engine and not the others:

Quote
All of the 2009 Lambda vehicles will have DI on the 3.6L.


And then the quotes from the other poster:

Quote
I don't think the Traverse will have any other engine option besides the 3.6L DI. At least that was the plan when I last heard.

Also, it should have a unique dash. All of the 2009 Lambda's are getting interior tweaks done to them for the addition of integrated switchgear.


and then, to clarify:

Quote
DI adds ample amounts of power and allows the engine to be more fuel efficient. Plus it reduces cold-start carbons.

The switchgear will be the new, integrated type. The whole center stack will be changed.

Price difference will be minimal.


And more, this time in response to WHY these changes (DI engine and integrated center stack, etc. were not included from the start, in the Lambdas):

Quote
They would have, but the DI engine and switchgear were not ready at the time.

The current portion of the center stack that is all black plastic will look different. Other than that, same as it is now.


So, good stuff. Nothing 100%, but seems dead on, and we'll know for sure in about 2 months or so when the ordering guides are put up.
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2008, 11:19:42 PM »

The extra little bit of grunt will help, but it won't be a shocking difference, as the current powerplant already makes great and very similar levels of power.  Transmission tuning should again be slightly different, but we'll have to see how well they actually do that.  Out of both GM and Ford using the 6-speed, GM still can't seem to come close to tuning it as well as Ford, and continually claims what they do is for economy, but that argument isn't working anymore.

All of the reviews I've seen of the new CTS say the 6 spd trans is dead on.  Of course, it may be easier to program the 3.6 to the CTS as opposed to this larger vehicle.
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2008, 12:37:48 AM »

The extra little bit of grunt will help, but it won't be a shocking difference, as the current powerplant already makes great and very similar levels of power.  Transmission tuning should again be slightly different, but we'll have to see how well they actually do that.  Out of both GM and Ford using the 6-speed, GM still can't seem to come close to tuning it as well as Ford, and continually claims what they do is for economy, but that argument isn't working anymore.

All of the reviews I've seen of the new CTS say the 6 spd trans is dead on.  Of course, it may be easier to program the 3.6 to the CTS as opposed to this larger vehicle.

The transmission in the Acadia is not the same as the one in the CTS.  Our transmission is actually a transaxle with half shafts to each of the front wheels.  The CTS has a rear wheel drive transmission with a driveshaft coming out the back.  I'm sure there are many different internal parts in each of the two transmissions.  Therefore it is hard to compare them.
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2008, 01:12:52 AM »

The extra little bit of grunt will help, but it won't be a shocking difference, as the current powerplant already makes great and very similar levels of power.  Transmission tuning should again be slightly different, but we'll have to see how well they actually do that.  Out of both GM and Ford using the 6-speed, GM still can't seem to come close to tuning it as well as Ford, and continually claims what they do is for economy, but that argument isn't working anymore.

All of the reviews I've seen of the new CTS say the 6 spd trans is dead on.  Of course, it may be easier to program the 3.6 to the CTS as opposed to this larger vehicle.

The transmission in the Acadia is not the same as the one in the CTS.  Our transmission is actually a transaxle with half shafts to each of the front wheels.  The CTS has a rear wheel drive transmission with a driveshaft coming out the back.  I'm sure there are many different internal parts in each of the two transmissions.  Therefore it is hard to compare them.

Thanks.  I completely forgot the difference in the drive systems.
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2008, 10:01:11 AM »

Yes, as said, different transmission.

That still doesn't answer why things still are the way they are in the Lambda's as Ford uses the same (as it's co-developed with them) transmission in the Taurus, Edge, Taurus X, etc. and get no complaints as to operation, but more praise.  That's largely a tuning difference.

But, we'll see.  I expect the vehicles to get a tad more responsive with the DI, but again, nothing "wow".  Just more grunt at some RPM"s and more efficient operation.
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2008, 10:14:13 AM »

Yes, as said, different transmission.

That still doesn't answer why things still are the way they are in the Lambda's as Ford uses the same (as it's co-developed with them) transmission in the Taurus, Edge, Taurus X, etc. and get no complaints as to operation, but more praise.  That's largely a tuning difference.

But, we'll see.  I expect the vehicles to get a tad more responsive with the DI, but again, nothing "wow".  Just more grunt at some RPM"s and more efficient operation.

 Ditto Its doesnt matter what engine GM put in, direct ignition engine has been around for a long time, its no new technology.... as long as they dont fix their tuning it will all be the same to me.  Oh No
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 10:58:13 AM »

It actually does matter which engine is used.  If more torque is developed at a lower rpm the vehicle is much more responsive with less gear changing from the transmission.  The problem with the Acadia and it's siblings is the engine's powerband is such that little power is developed below 2000 rpm right where the transmission likes to be.  If this was a V-8 with the same hp (275 hp) but with torque numbers being at least equal to the hp rating and being developed at a lower rpm, this car would have plenty of power.  If you keep the Acadia's engine more in it's power band it is pretty responsive.  The problem is with the programming of the transmission.  It is programmed to keep the engine revs as low as possible for mileage.  It works great in the lab where the EPA does it's testing, but I doubt it helps much at all in real world driving.  I think what GM did here was trade (mpg) bragging rights for drivers satisfaction.  In the end if they don't improve the trans programming it will bite GM in the butt as far as sales go.  I'm not saying the sales numbers will plummet, but GM will have more dissatified owners than they should have. 
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2008, 11:29:27 AM »

we will have to wait and see once the denali version arrive....  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2008, 01:09:17 PM »

It actually does matter which engine is used.  If more torque is developed at a lower rpm the vehicle is much more responsive with less gear changing from the transmission.  The problem with the Acadia and it's siblings is the engine's powerband is such that little power is developed below 2000 rpm right where the transmission likes to be.  If this was a V-8 with the same hp (275 hp) but with torque numbers being at least equal to the hp rating and being developed at a lower rpm, this car would have plenty of power.  If you keep the Acadia's engine more in it's power band it is pretty responsive.  The problem is with the programming of the transmission.  It is programmed to keep the engine revs as low as possible for mileage.  It works great in the lab where the EPA does it's testing, but I doubt it helps much at all in real world driving.  I think what GM did here was trade (mpg) bragging rights for drivers satisfaction.  In the end if they don't improve the trans programming it will bite GM in the butt as far as sales go.  I'm not saying the sales numbers will plummet, but GM will have more dissatified owners than they should have. 

bbc, you summed up my thoughts perfectly.

Has anybody seen any HP/torque curves for the current Lambda engine and/or the CTS's DI engine?  It would be interesting to see the differences. 
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2008, 01:58:50 PM »

Quote
That still doesn't answer why things still are the way they are in the Lambda's as Ford uses the same (as it's co-developed with them) transmission in the Taurus, Edge, Taurus X, etc. and get no complaints as to operation, but more praise.  That's largely a tuning difference.

A friend has the Ford Edge and it is a smaller vehicle, e.g. has only two rows of seating.  It is several hundred pounds lighter than our Acadias, ergo more responsive and less tendency to lug at the low RPMs. The engine is only slightly smaller, 3.5L at 265 HP & 250 ft-lbs of torque.
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2008, 02:14:36 PM »

The current V-6 used in the Lambda's I believe has about 250 ft lbs of torque.  I think the DI V-6 has around 265 ft lbs.  This is not a huge difference for the weight of the car, but it would help a little.  The reason we are not seeing a drastic reprogramming of the transmission is that it would require new EPA certification which is expensive, time consuming, and would change the EPA ratings most likely to a lower mpg rating which I'm sure the marketing department at GM wouldn't like.  There is a lot more to this than most of us think.
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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2008, 04:11:53 PM »

The current V-6 used in the Lambda's I believe has about 250 ft lbs of torque.  I think the DI V-6 has around 265 ft lbs.  This is not a huge difference for the weight of the car, but it would help a little.  The reason we are not seeing a drastic reprogramming of the transmission is that it would require new EPA certification which is expensive, time consuming, and would change the EPA ratings most likely to a lower mpg rating which I'm sure the marketing department at GM wouldn't like.  There is a lot more to this than most of us think.

Yes, exactly, there is.  As even the engineers involved who have posted here have said, there's reasons why things are the way they are, and you won't please everyone.  Of course, many still also think there could be less lazy performance with no notable mpg degradation, but again, it all depends on the situation.

The extra little bit of torque and horses from the DI engine should definitely help, especially if there's more down lower.  A higher winding engine in a heavy vehicle often can relate in some of the Lambda characteristics, depending on how it's all programmed.
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 09:54:58 PM »

Okay, Bluetooth, real time XM radio traffic, and the Heated/Cooled seats already rumored on the Enclave forum a while back will be there.

Here's a snippet of the '09 Traverse information dealers can now see on their DealerWorld system:
Quote

Some highlites:
2nd row buckets are available, Heated and cooled seats, Mirror spotter, Projector beam head lights, Daul exhaust, power lift gate, Real time XM radio traffic, Blue tooth, 6 speed transmission, 3.6 liter SIDI engine, Rear camera, 8 passenger seating the list goes on and on.
The trim packages are 1LS 1LT 2LT and LTZ. They also have the list of colors Like desert brown and metallic green.
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